St. Joseph's

[XU85]

You hear about school A blocking school B all the time. In fact, Dayton seems to be concerned Xavier and Butler may block them from the Big East.

Before UD fans pounce on me, I am not advocating Xavier and Butler block them, I am simply asking if any one knows if 1 school can block another school or does it take several schools to block a school.

This is complete fiction that appears on these board ('blocking")...no one team has veto power over a whole conference. The Big East will have bylaws in place and a process to add teams. The old Big East had to have 70% pf the teams approve to add a school I believe. Xavier will have one vote, Georgetown will have one vote. NOW...what Xavier can do is lobby against Dayton (for example) and they have the ear and respect of their member schools. And like anything these are individual people making decisions (the AD's and Presidents) and can be persuaded. Rumor has it BC lobbied against UCONN in expansion in the ACC and helped to change peoples minds to take Pitt instead. But they did not "block" or "veto" them. So theoretically Xavier could do the same...but if 7 - 9 other schools really want Dayton, Xavier is SOL.

Thank you for your rational response.

[Edrick]

Yes that's likely the voting rules. does anyone doubt those are incorrect?

what would happen in reality, if Xavier doesn't want Dayton they'd just insure that they have enough votes (likely starting with Butler and Creighton) and just extending if necessary, promising that they will stand by their side in a similar situation.

xavier, like villanova, can block programs.

[Westbrook36]

I see Headpainter has made his first appearance on the board.

[muskienick]

Why would a conference want a high concentration of threatening basketball programs leading to more heated rivalries and border wars? Because those will end up being marquee games that draw an audience?

THANK YOU! Finally someone makes a little sense. Competitiveness, rivalries, and fan interest are what ultimately drive collegiate sports. Consider the rivalry between UNC and Duke. Arguably, that rivalry made ACC basketball what it is, and how many miles separate them? When you reduce conference membership to revenue, television markets, geographic "footprint", and a whiny school's hubris and narcissistic territorialism vis-à-vis a crosstown rival (sorry Nova, but all of your posts here have only reaffirmed this opinion), you take something fundamental away from competitiveness and what puts fans in the seats. As much as I'm thrilled that Xavier is joining this league, another part of me is equally disgusted by the tidal wave of conference realignment over the past few years. The almighty dollar is driving everything, and in this respect, the tail is really wagging the dog. Money now determines who plays who, which rivalries are preserved, and which rivalries are destroyed. Will we ever recognize that collegiate sport became the massive money-making machine that it is because of the organic manner in which rivalries developed and thrived, the Hatfield-McCoy-esque border wars with your neighbors, the unexpected thrill of small town David slaying big city Goliath, and all the other unscripted doses of excitement that keep us on the edge of our seats?

What was once organic is now completely contrived, and I feel that at some point it's all going to backfire. Would a group of fans in Stillwater, Oklahoma naturally have a vested interest in their hometown school annually playing and defeating a team from Morgantown, West Virginia, some 1,100 miles away? Um, obviously not. How long will the ESPNs of the world be able to sell this lie before Okie does an honest self assessment and says to himself, "You know, I'd rather just play Tulsa ..."

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. As a Domer, I should start throwing stones at my own glass house. Notre Dame is serial offender number 1 in this regard, and I can offer no excuses or justifications for it. The bastion of "integrity" I call my alma mater is every bit as driven by money as any other school, and probably more so. At the end of the day, though, I dislike this trend where ever it takes place. And right now, Villanova, you are the focus of my ire. St. Joseph's should be in this league, and you need to stop being a prima donna. Loathe your rival, sure, but respect him as well and, above all, embrace the rivalry. I've always been a casual Villanova fan, but I'm really starting to dislike you ... which is frustrating because I have a grad school application in place at Nova as we speak. But go ahead and maintain your air of superiority and dismissiveness toward your crosstown brethren because, as any well versed Jesuit or Augustinian will tell you, pride goeth before the fall.

Intense rivalries don't have to be next-door neighbors. Just look at Georgetown and Syracuse (hundreds of miles away from one another). They have virtually nothing in common except being private colleges. I envision my university (Xavier) developing great longstanding rivalries with institutions in the Big East especially like Creighton, Marquette, Butler (already started!), Villanova, and Georgetown. It will be infinitely easier to develop those types of marquee games that will interest TV viewers far and wide by our 10-member format where we play our in-conference partners H/A each year. Going to 12 teams formatted into two 6-team divisions will actually limit our opportunity to develop those interesting and exciting rivalries and cut our home/away opponents from 9 to 5 while increasing the number of potential FOX TV Conference games by only one (from 90 to 91).

So if great rivalries is a key component to developing an interesting and exciting viewing experience for potential FOX TV patrons, then it would seem that staying at 10 members with each member playing the others H/A in an 18-game Conference season would be the best solution.

[marquette]

Intense rivalries don't have to be next-door neighbors. Just look at Georgetown and Syracuse (hundreds of miles away from one another). They have virtually nothing in common except being private colleges. I envision my university (Xavier) developing great longstanding rivalries with institutions in the Big East especially like Creighton, Marquette, Butler (already started!), Villanova, and Georgetown. It will be infinitely easier to develop those types of marquee games that will interest TV viewers far and wide by our 10-member format where we play our in-conference partners H/A each year. Going to 12 teams formatted into two 6-team divisions will actually limit our opportunity to develop those interesting and exciting rivalries and cut our home/away opponents from 9 to 5 while increasing the number of potential FOX TV Conference games by only one (from 90 to 91).

So if great rivalries is a key component to developing an interesting and exciting viewing experience for potential FOX TV patrons, then it would seem that staying at 10 members with each member playing the others H/A in an 18-game Conference season would be the best solution.

The conference games go from 90 to 96. (9 home games)*(10 teams)=90. (8 home games)*(12 teams)=96. Otherwise, no arguments.

[Ball Turret Gunner]

If you have ever been to the A10 board, you would see everything becomes about Dayton as well.

Seriously though, I think it is funny that we have five pages about a school that has less than a 0% chance of getting an invite (St. Joes not Dayton)

Heck, if you go to the X board, it's all about Dayton too. We cannot be held responsible for the strong emotion we stir.

[muskienick]

[quote="marquetteThe conference games go from 90 to 96. (9 home games)*(10 teams)=90. (8 home games)*(12 teams)=96. Otherwise, no arguments.[/quote]
Brain fart on my part. The '1' and the '6' seem almost too far apart from one another to qualify as a keyboard error.

Given the smallish differentiation between the two numbers, I'm sure that Fox can make up the difference by airing some of the better inter-conference games featuring Big East teams.

[Markimo]

Money has nothing to do with it. St. Joe's isn't going to be invited because Nova doesn't want to recruit against them, the same reason they weren't invited to the Big East when Marquette was.

On the one hand, I see your point, and I'm now rethinking to what extent revenue potential factors into expansion. On the other hand, Nova's squeamishness about having another team in Philly is, in my mind, an equally stupid reason to exclude St. Joe's. The notion that the two schools don't already compete for Philly recruits is ludicrous, irrespective of whether St. Joe's actually wins any of those recruiting battles. Even if bringing the Hawks into the league would foster more recruiting parity between them, the other 9 schools should not allow Villanova to have veto power, especially when it's not in the best interests of the league.

But back to the revenue question. On some level, I despise the extent to which revenue plays into expansion, but I also see its merit. For this reason, I'm starting to question the decision making. I get that expansion has focused on teams further west. The league wants a bigger footprint and more geographically natural rivals for DePaul and Marquette. So, um, let's think about this for a second in terms of both geography and revenue. Xavier is in Cincinnati - metro area population of 2.1 million - Check. Butler is in Indianapolis - metro area population is also 2.1 million - Check. Creighton is in Omaha - metro area population of ... 415,000. Um, what? I understand that considerations go beyond television markets, but if they mattered at all, you'd think Creighton would be immediately excluded. Yes, they have good basketball chops in recent memory, but historically they've never been much of a factor. And again, let me say this - Omaha, Nebraska. Let's look at another program which, arguably, has as much basketball pedigree (at least historically) as Creighton - Detroit Mercy. The Titans were good in the 70s, and had a few tourney upsets in the 90s, and here's the kicker - the population of the Detroit metro area is 5.2 million. Think about that for a second; ruminate on that number - 5.2 million people, the 12th largest city in America. Are there greater television marketing dollars to be had in Omaha?

I love the Bluejays program, don't get me wrong. They have a rabid fan base and are routinely in the top-20 in attendance nationwide (probably because there's nothing else to do in Omaha ... much like Dayton). I also don't have any particular interest in Detroit's basketball program ... but maybe I would if the profile of the league could elevate their program and provide a geographic rival to Xavier. I think it's safe to say that from Providence to Omaha, there would be more fan interest across the board in any Creighton match up than that of Detroit, but that's because people have short-term memories and are more familiar with the Bluejays' program. This raises the ultimate question related to expansion - do you expand based on (a) short-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and recent strength of program; or (b) long-term potential revenue, geographic locale, and historical strength of program? I'm not raising this question to protest Creighton being included. Again, I'm excited that the Muskies get to play them every year (they developed a great short-term rivalry with the jays back during the days of Kyle Korver and David West). I'm more trying to work through how these expansion decisions are made ...

Understand your point. However your Omaha market size is 30 years old, current media market area of 750,000. Plus, unlike states like Ohio where multiple major cities exist, Omaha market also covers western Iowa/eastern Nebraska, another 250k +. While still half of the size of the markets you describe, Creighton market must have been big enough for Fox.

[NDGradXUFan]

Hey ND, who really cares about your "ire?" You and your Holier than Thou Golden Domers can go jump in those ACC waters and never look back...Why should you even care? This isn't your conference anymore. Go play Florida State and VA Tech. They clearly have more in common with ND than G'town, DePaul, Nova, and Marq. What is that which binds you all? Obviously not religious affiliation or academics. It's money--you guys love that stuff.

Um, have you read anything that I've written, or are you just another holier-than-thou Nova fan who gets his panties in a bunch whenever someone breathes a critical word about his school? I acknowledged that ND's decision to move to the ACC was about money, and I acknowledged that we're serial offender #1. What more do you want?

At least the rest of us stuck together. And that is what this is all about. You guys are reknown for jumping every time the almighty dollar presents it self without any regard whatsoever about other schools you profess to have alliances with. Talk about "maintaining an air of superiority and dismissiveness towards your bretheren." Honestly what a completely self-absorbed athletic program ND has become, and you seem to represent it well. Do what I say, not what I do, huh? Get lost.

Oh please. Again, I acknowledged that ND has this problem and I stated that I don't like it. And yet Villanova isn't exhibiting the same behavior by cockblocking St. Joe's? Come off it.

What I think is going on here is that you are a Joey's Alum/fan and have nothing to do with ND. Why would a ND fan, who is heading to a new league themselves, be hanging around a Big East message board unless you have an agenda? Sorry, St. Joe's but you will have to do your best in the A-10. Really? Now you have my "ire" NDGrad.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Would you like me to post a pic of my Notre Dame diploma to prove that I'm a graduate? I'd be happy to do so.

[UDGutter2]

You could have 12 teams and an 18 game unbalanced schedule giving you 108 games.