Greg McDermott Suspension, Etc...

[GumbyDamnit!]

As my father once said, we will only see true racial equality when there are as many black players on the PGA tour as white kids in the NBA.

MM I came to your defense once in this thread and now will ask you to open your mind and consider a few things. When Colin K.went the way of MLK with his peaceful protest what happened? “How dare he kneel quietly! The audacity of that black man! Who does he think he is?” This in the 2020’s, still.

“It’s set up that you always lose the game” is perhaps the most insightful comment you made but you may not realize why I feel it so apt regarding this issue. Imagine being effectively told where you can and can’t live. Still not welcomed in many public places. When you walk into your apartment building are you asked to show ID even if you have a key? How about when you use the community pool? Imagine being a biracial couple and applying for a HELOC. The black spouse’s estimate comes in considerably less than the white spouses for the same house. Do you actually fear engaging with law enforcement in any way?

Dismiss things like this at your convenience as trivial, but they are part of the experience that most POC’s can relate to, that I for one never had to. I hear you and agree that some people take it too far in exacting their pounds of flesh. I don’t agree with using blanketing terms like racist for every bad action. There should be some sliding scale so that term retains the strength of its true meaning IMO. But the fact that you’re a little inconvenienced or uncomfortable about some of these discussions is a good thing. As you mentioned as with MLK, to enact change POC better ally themselves with (some of) the people, who ultimately have the power to enact change: white. What does that commentary reveal to you?

Bigotry sucks. We’ve all unfortunately seen it or maybe even experienced it. 3 years ago at a Nova game a group of 7-8 alums walk into a game. One of us is black. All the rest the same age, education, socioeconomic levels, etc. He’s pulled aside and searched by event security at what they dubbed “Just a random search.” No alarms from the metal detector; dressed in his Nova gear like the rest of his (white friends). The guy couldn’t hurt a fly. You want to tell me that it’s no big deal, as his friends are watching him shamefully unturn every pocket of his pants and jacket like he is some criminal. So every small black and white kid in line is thinking he’s someone dangerous. Complete humiliation for someone who deserves better than that.

So let’s all try to walk a bit in each other’s shoes. And if we feel a little bit uncomfortable every now and then, we’ll maybe we should.

[sju88grad]

As my father once said, we will only see true racial equality when there are as many black players on the PGA tour as white kids in the NBA.

MM I came to your defense once in this thread and now will ask you to open your mind and consider a few things. When Colin K.went the way of MLK with his peaceful protest what happened? “How dare he kneel quietly! The audacity of that black man! Who does he think he is?” This in the 2020’s, still.

“It’s set up that you always lose the game” is perhaps the most insightful comment you made but you may not realize why I feel it so apt regarding this issue. Imagine being effectively told where you can and can’t live. Still not welcomed in many public places. When you walk into your apartment building are you asked to show ID even if you have a key? How about when you use the community pool? Imagine being a biracial couple and applying for a HELOC. The black spouse’s estimate comes in considerably less than the white spouses for the same house. Do you actually fear engaging with law enforcement in any way?

Dismiss things like this at your convenience as trivial, but they are part of the experience that most POC’s can relate to, that I for one never had to. I hear you and agree that some people take it too far in exacting their pounds of flesh. I don’t agree with using blanketing terms like racist for every bad action. There should be some sliding scale so that term retains the strength of its true meaning IMO. But the fact that you’re a little inconvenienced or uncomfortable about some of these discussions is a good thing. As you mentioned as with MLK, to enact change POC better ally themselves with (some of) the people, who ultimately have the power to enact change: white. What does that commentary reveal to you?

Bigotry sucks. We’ve all unfortunately seen it or maybe even experienced it. 3 years ago at a Nova game a group of 7-8 alums walk into a game. One of us is black. All the rest the same age, education, socioeconomic levels, etc. He’s pulled aside and searched by event security at what they dubbed “Just a random search.” No alarms from the metal detector; dressed in his Nova gear like the rest of his (white friends). The guy couldn’t hurt a fly. You want to tell me that it’s no big deal, as his friends are watching him shamefully unturn every pocket of his pants and jacket like he is some criminal. So every small black and white kid in line is thinking he’s someone dangerous. Complete humiliation for someone who deserves better than that.

So let’s all try to walk a bit in each other’s shoes. And if we feel a little bit uncomfortable every now and then, we’ll maybe we should.

Fantastic post Gumby......

I had someone recently say to me how they “don’t have a racist bone in their body” but then proceeded to tell me how the Black Lives Matter movement was “making them racist”. I didn’t know where to start my response with that comment......

Another example along the lines of your friend.....I had a coworker (African American) who ran out of gas in downtown LA on his way home from work.....he was nicely picked up by a white couple who were taking him to a gas station.....police saw the car go by, pulled them over and held this guy at gunpoint until they were comfortable that he wasn’t a carjacker......

This country has a lot of work to do but for those who try to pretend it’s not a big problem, that’s why it’s a big problem....

[XUFan09]

Josh Jones, a former player for Mac, opened up for the Omaha paper:
https://omaha.com/sports/college/creighton/what-happened-greg-mcdermotts-words-dont-jibe-with-the-man-former-jay-josh-jones-knows/article_45939348-7fde-11eb-a0fa-63363f9f2110.html
Powerful read

Really good article.

"Implicit bias builds over a lifetime, so subtly that even the best-intentioned lose their way at times. Jones has caught himself pondering this week on the number of affluent White men, like McDermott, who’ve never been pressed or challenged to compassionately see the world through a different lens."

What I appreciate about McDermott is that I always got the impression he would be reflective in this kind of situation instead of reactionary, and nothing I have heard since contradicts that impression. I wish more people would be like that.

[Savannah Jay]

As my father once said, we will only see true racial equality when there are as many black players on the PGA tour as white kids in the NBA.

MM I came to your defense once in this thread and now will ask you to open your mind and consider a few things. When Colin K.went the way of MLK with his peaceful protest what happened? “How dare he kneel quietly! The audacity of that black man! Who does he think he is?” This in the 2020’s, still.

“It’s set up that you always lose the game” is perhaps the most insightful comment you made but you may not realize why I feel it so apt regarding this issue. Imagine being effectively told where you can and can’t live. Still not welcomed in many public places. When you walk into your apartment building are you asked to show ID even if you have a key? How about when you use the community pool? Imagine being a biracial couple and applying for a HELOC. The black spouse’s estimate comes in considerably less than the white spouses for the same house. Do you actually fear engaging with law enforcement in any way?

Dismiss things like this at your convenience as trivial, but they are part of the experience that most POC’s can relate to, that I for one never had to. I hear you and agree that some people take it too far in exacting their pounds of flesh. I don’t agree with using blanketing terms like racist for every bad action. There should be some sliding scale so that term retains the strength of its true meaning IMO. But the fact that you’re a little inconvenienced or uncomfortable about some of these discussions is a good thing. As you mentioned as with MLK, to enact change POC better ally themselves with (some of) the people, who ultimately have the power to enact change: white. What does that commentary reveal to you?

Bigotry sucks. We’ve all unfortunately seen it or maybe even experienced it. 3 years ago at a Nova game a group of 7-8 alums walk into a game. One of us is black. All the rest the same age, education, socioeconomic levels, etc. He’s pulled aside and searched by event security at what they dubbed “Just a random search.” No alarms from the metal detector; dressed in his Nova gear like the rest of his (white friends). The guy couldn’t hurt a fly. You want to tell me that it’s no big deal, as his friends are watching him shamefully unturn every pocket of his pants and jacket like he is some criminal. So every small black and white kid in line is thinking he’s someone dangerous. Complete humiliation for someone who deserves better than that.

So let’s all try to walk a bit in each other’s shoes. And if we feel a little bit uncomfortable every now and then, we’ll maybe we should.

Fantastic post Gumby......

I had someone recently say to me how they “don’t have a racist bone in their body” but then proceeded to tell me how the Black Lives Matter movement was “making them racist”. I didn’t know where to start my response with that comment......

Another example along the lines of your friend.....I had a coworker (African American) who ran out of gas in downtown LA on his way home from work.....he was nicely picked up by a white couple who were taking him to a gas station.....police saw the car go by, pulled them over and held this guy at gunpoint until they were comfortable that he wasn’t a carjacker......

This country has a lot of work to do but for those who try to pretend it’s not a big problem, that’s why it’s a big problem....

Ditto re: Gumby's post and yours.

Last year, when the pandemic hit, we had a young black man ask to come stay with us because he was in a boarding school for boys and he had no socialization when his school went virtual (he was a senior in HS and we had a senior in HS and a freshman in college who came home when the school went virtual...so he knew we had peeps his age at home). He had been a friend of our son's, the senior, since first grade. Lost track of him when he switched schools (pre-social media), then re-engaged when they both attended the same basketball camp. We had started inviting him to go out to eat with us, went to his ball games, he came over for the holidays, etc. So when he was bored and lonely, he asked to come to us. My wife is a jewel of a human being (I'm a grumpy bastard, as you know, but trying to learn from her example) so, of course, we welcomed him. Let me just say it was a very interesting time to have him come into our lives in a bigger way. We always tried to talk about the day's events at dinner time...but holy sheet sometimes it was hard. Every black person i've ever had a meaningful conversation with has had to deal shit i didn't...this young man has dealt with shit our kids haven't. And it's simply because of the color of his skin.

So yes, MLK asked that people be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin. So when black people die for no other reason than the color of their skin, that is not happening. Should people burn cities? I don't think so...but I've not been in their shoes. When Creighton decided to put "equality" on the back of their jerseys, some dude posts on social media "that's just a word on a jersey." I am thinking, "welp, the day that 'equality' is a value we all live by then we won't have to put that word on a jersey."

Cheers.

[MullinMayhem]

Gumby, good post. I also appreciate how most of the discussion has been pretty civil for such a tough topic. So thank you to all for that. These are discussions we need to have and I wish there were townhalls on this stuff weekly.

Some things I will say: of course there is racism still. I'm not discounting that. Sadly it will always be here, because it's a sad human condition. But I believe it's not as pervasive as the media claims. There is no doubt obviously that wealth has been passed down to white people that blacks did not get to due to slavery, jim crow, etc. There were discriminatory practices in real estate in the past. I get all of that and they are real things that play a role. But, we need to start asking at what point does a group have agency? At what point do we say, "maybe there's a large cultural aspect" to outcomes? I'm not doubting racism/discrimination hurts to a point in terms of opportunities, police, etc. but are we really to argue that culture has zero to do with outcomes? Never believe anyone when they tell you the answer to a huge issue is simple and boils down to 1 variable (racism). It's always more nuanced and there's a multivariate answer. You also have to contend with the fact that many black immigrants do quite well here, while many african-americans are doing worse than they were shortly after jim crow (a time of overt racism). If it was only racism holding african-americans back, why are the also black immigrants not held back? Did you know that asians and indians actually make much more on average than whites? Those are technically "POC", so how is it only about skin color? The answer is it's not only about that. It goes much, much deeper into culture and values.

[ecasadoSBU]

Gumby, good post. I also appreciate how most of the discussion has been pretty civil for such a tough topic. So thank you to all for that. These are discussions we need to have and I wish there were townhalls on this stuff weekly.

Some things I will say: of course there is racism still. I'm not discounting that. Sadly it will always be here, because it's a sad human condition. But I believe it's not as pervasive as the media claims. There is no doubt obviously that wealth has been passed down to white people that blacks did not get to due to slavery, jim crow, etc. There were discriminatory practices in real estate in the past. I get all of that and they are real things that play a role. But, we need to start asking at what point does a group have agency? At what point do we say, "maybe there's a large cultural aspect" to outcomes? I'm not doubting racism/discrimination hurts to a point in terms of opportunities, police, etc. but are we really to argue that culture has zero to do with outcomes? Never believe anyone when they tell you the answer to a huge issue is simple and boils down to 1 variable (racism). It's always more nuanced and there's a multivariate answer. You also have to contend with the fact that many black immigrants do quite well here, while many african-americans are doing worse than they were shortly after jim crow (a time of overt racism). If it was only racism holding african-americans back, why are the also black immigrants not held back? Did you know that asians and indians actually make much more on average than whites? Those are technically "POC", so how is it only about skin color? The answer is it's not only about that. It goes much, much deeper into culture and values.

We are getting a bit off subject I'm afraid... but I will give my long two cents before this thread gets inevitably locked up.

Yes, there is racism. Yes, white Americans had a crazy head start with land ownership and wealth acquisition (whether by violent means, education, legal system preferences, etc). Yes, there was slavery. Yes, there is still some level of inequality in the system.

With that said. I think culture is a much more significant factor TODAY in the success of an individual in America than the other matters brought up above. Sadly, we don't get to pick which culture gets instilled on us from an early age as our parents and surroundings make that decision for us. Culture is so complex here in the USA because in this country it is greatly influenced by race while I noticed that in other countries I visited the culture you adopt has more to do with socioeconomic standing (Poor, middle-class, wealthy).

Which leads me to my very long actual post:

I brought up the issue of culture in the past to many in my Bronx community and I've gotten grilled so hard for bringing it up to the point that I been labeled "self hating", "white wannabe", "Racist" and all sorts of horrible things. I've come to the conclusion that it is a taboo subject not worth bringing up because it is far easier to blame someone else for all your problems than to assume responsibility and enact change in your community from within. I've lived in the South Bronx for 22 years, a native of the Dominican Republic and I have seen many of my fellow compatriots (Dominicans residing in NYC) pick up a very unproductive and damaging inner-city/Bronx culture that leads to nowhere. The same applies for most of the Bronx natives who I grew up and attended school with. Most of my classmates had a serious lack of appreciation for education, didn't respect our teachers or elders, and fell into gang violence, drugs, and other terrible things.

I couldn't understand it back then, but what the heck made my life so different from them? Well, I had a single immigrant mother with a vastly different culture than most of the people in the Bronx did. She valued education, didn't let me play ball in the block or hang outside with strangers, ensured I did my schoolwork first and that I read my summer books, and surrounded me with my extended family with similar values as opposed to friends/classmates. But for the kids at my local Bronx high school I was just another "white wannabe" which always puzzled the heck out of me. How can trying to get an education and better yourself be associated with "whiteness" in the hood? It's so damaging to our very own black and Hispanic communities.

Over the past couple of year I've come to understand that racial politics, the media, the music/movies/tv we are exposed to does more harm than good and furthers creates a sort of minority complex that destroys the drive to learn and to better themselves of much of our black/latino youth.

Last summer was the worst summer ever for my wife (also a native Dominican) and I, because she was a 3rd year medical student and she literally had to leave our South Bronx neighborhood behind and move into the "Middle Class", mostly "white" Morris Park/Albert Einstein Med housing for the summer as our neighborhood was unbearable with the late night block parties, music, alcohol, drugs, violent crime, riots and looting, on top of the pandemic. But we had no one to defend us because the cops were against the wall with the anti-cop racial rhetoric led by our very own mayor.

Our own community ousted us because the prevailing unproductive "culture" kicks out those from the community that are trying to do good for themselves and for the community. My wife which wants to serve her community felt defeated when she was pushed out by the madness. But the politicians don't want to hear anything about that. It greatly pissed me off to hear Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez bring up that the uptick of crime and looting was due to a rise in hunger and unemployment while I very well knew that the people hanging outside in the block were getting their $600 weekly checks to party all night while I had to get up at 6am the next day to serve at a major NYC hospital in the middle of a pandemic.

So who is going to take charge? Who is going to tell our community that we can and have to do better for ourselves? This is not a white, Hispanic, or black thing. We are in 2021 and we have the internet with a wealth of information to learn for free. Yes, white Americans had a head start. But our modern system is probably the best at incentivizing competition and while it has room for improvement - it works far better than the rest of the world. The USA is probably the only country were so many immigrant groups with difficult experiences have been able to thrive and succeed and catch up (see the Indian-American and Jewish for example).

At the end of the day I firmly believe that if you work hard&smart you will succeed in this country. Our community has to instill values of education, entrepreneurship, saving and investing capital, living well within your means. We need to adopt capitalist concepts and use it to move up the ladder. Its the only way. I tell people to buy real estate and to become landlords - they say "for what? that's too much work" yet they are the first ones to complain when gentrification pushes them out. Why don't we pool our savings and buy the rental buildings we have lived for decades and turn them into co-ops? Why don't we own the corner fried chicken joint yet we consume it every day? Why did we loot our independent immigrant-owned pharmacy in the block during the last crisis? So many questions!!!

[GumbyDamnit!]

ecasadoSBU thanks for your perspective. None of these issues are easy. The only way to gain perspective and understanding is to have open dialogue about different experiences. What’s great about the American experiment is that the tent is a big one and I agree that hard work and perseverance can be the great equalizer. Your story is a great one—child of an immigrant constantly working towards their American dream. Thanks for sharing.

MM you are right. There are many variables that make it a complex issue. Using my Nova friend as an example as well as ecasadoSBU sure this is still America. Hard work overcomes a lot. My point was that in comparing the two of us, the pressure applied to him daily because of skin color is not an experience I have ever had to deal with or even think about. But for him, even during a diversion—a college hoops game with Alum friends— he was still treated as something less. That was a simple snapshot in time. He’s told me about far worse. So to your point, yes, he was counter-cultural and his upbringing led him to get a great education and job. But that education and socio-economic status still does not overcome regular occurrences of being “put in his place.” In this instance by a couple security guards merely because of his skin tone. As someone who genuinely loves the guy it was a heartbreaking moment because the implications of it all was painfully obvious to us all.

[MullinMayhem]

Wow ecasadoSBU ...thanks for the insight that's so insightful and interesting. I completely agree with what you're saying. There's a clear middle ground where we can hold police more accountable by weakening the union a tad and acknowledge there's work to be done, while not just throwing 65% of the country under the bus and blaming them for every shortcoming or different outcome. That's when it goes too far. Blaming an entire race is never going to help anything and will only increase racism. Ultimately, the answers are going to have to come from within the black community, because it's just poor optics when a white person like me or others try to offer suggestions to help. If I had to guess, I'd say that 75-80% of the outcomes are due to culture (choices, values or lackthereof, strong families or lackthereof, delaying gratification, etc.). I think modern day hip hop doesn't help either, because it tells kids in the hood that they need to wear Gucci and Versace to be cool. It's very very materialistic. I used to hear stories about kids in the inner city wearing $300 Jordans but came from poverty. That money could've been much better spent obviously. There are studies that also show black children are not read to nearly as much as other children. That is a big factor also ignored...because it has to do with culture. Black culture is now mainstream American culture from Hollywood, sports, commercials, media, entertainment, etc. I think we've come a LONG way since the Civil War and jim crow. But the popular theme seems to be that we haven't. It's because there's an agenda...victimhood is extremely profitable and also puts a bandaid on much more complex and nuanced issues people don't want to discuss. If victimhood becomes part of your race's identity, many will unfortunately live up to those expectations and see life through that lens. America is not an evil place...lots of opportunity out there. Mindset and culture is so important.

[ecasadoSBU]

ecasadoSBU thanks for your perspective. None of these issues are easy. The only way to gain perspective and understanding is to have open dialogue about different experiences. What’s great about the American experiment is that the tent is a big one and I agree that hard work and perseverance can be the great equalizer. Your story is a great one—child of an immigrant constantly working towards their American dream. Thanks for sharing.

MM you are right. There are many variables that make it a complex issue. Using my Nova friend as an example as well as ecasadoSBU sure this is still America. Hard work overcomes a lot. My point was that in comparing the two of us, the pressure applied to him daily because of skin color is not an experience I have ever had to deal with or even think about. But for him, even during a diversion—a college hoops game with Alum friends— he was still treated as something less. That was a simple snapshot in time. He’s told me about far worse. So to your point, yes, he was counter-cultural and his upbringing led him to get a great education and job. But that education and socio-economic status still does not overcome regular occurrences of being “put in his place.” In this instance by a couple security guards merely because of his skin tone. As someone who genuinely loves the guy it was a heartbreaking moment because the implications of it all was painfully obvious to us all.

The following is my opinion based on how I have come to understand the subject of Biases:

Biases are REAL. We have all sorts of positive and negative biases (aka stereotypes) in our mind as soon as we meet someone. The problem with biases is that they exist in the human mind and its impossible (at least for now) to control people's thoughts. What we CAN control as a society is to ensure that biases are not codified into legal system, that they are reduced to a minimum in the judicial system (i.e: by having a balanced and diverse Jury), and that our economic system remains free from biases (i.e: redlining, Jim Crow, hiring policies, etc)

The reality is that some groups disproportionately benefit from positive stereotypes/biases while others are disproportionately harmed by negative stereotypes/biases:

I say that the best approach is to live with the biases and do the best to change them from negative to a positive one with your actions. What do I mean by that?

(1) I can spend my whole life being pissed off and discouraged that the only thing people think when I say I'm a native of the D.R is that I must be a good baseball player, and that I can't possibly be a good IT programmer...

OR

(2) I can work hard to be the best programmer I can be, encourage other Dominican-Americans to become programmers, and slowly as the rest of the population encounters more Dominican-American programmers the baseball bias will be neutralized or will evolve into a positive bias. NOTE: There will always be a bias - the question is whether a sub-population benefits from more positive ones than negatives


Does that make sense?

So white Americans, largely due to the benefit of their aggressive (literally) head start have been able to somewhat proportionately distribute themselves across the socioeconomic pyramid to the point that the biases people have regarding white Americans are largely neutralized. For example - There is a pile of negative biases linked with rural Appalachian Whites, but there is bunch of positive biases linked with Urban whites from NYC/Boston, and so on. White Americans are all over the ladder to the point that it becomes difficult to "stereotype" them.

Now, Speaking for my Hispanic-Americans and black American brothers - what we have to do is work our butts off to ensure that there are more successful examples of us out there to change those stereotypes. But we have to work 3x as hard as everyone else to catch up using the capitalist system. The fact of the matter is that no matter how much we complain about the current negative biases linked to our groups - nothing will change unless we climb the ladder in more proportionate numbers. White Americans won't help us there - no one will. Why would anyone help you in this competitive system? It's up to us to take charge - to live with the negative biases for now and not let them discourage you, but instead use it to drive you to get you to who you aspire to be.

The problem with our current 21st century approach is that we want to force people to change their biases. That will never work. You cannot change what a cop, what a professor, what CEO thinks when he first sees you no matter how many laws you put in place. However, you can show with effort and hard work that you don't meet their negative bias when they first met you. Once they see more of you in numbers their biases will slowly start changing and they will want to hire more of you -because not hiring you will place them in a competitive disadvantage.

Now, going back to your Nova friend. He can either (1) feel demoralized and enraged and never attend another game or (2) he can take the other route and look around and question why there is such few people that look like him attending CBB game (trust me - I question why there aren't enough Hispanics that look like me when I attend the BET) and take charge and say "I will do everything possible to mentor/teach my community so that the next generation of Nova alumni have more people that look like me so that I can change that negative bias into a positive one"


Any other approach is business as usual and will do nothing to help our community grow stronger. If you need more proof just look at the last 60 years. What proportion of our population makes part of the middle class? Upper Class? Now, go ahead and compare with pre-1960s. Not much has changed, right?

[MullinMayhem]

Such a refreshing message. "I can spend my whole life being pissed off"...that nails it. Life is about mindset! We ALL go through trials and tribulations to varying degrees. It's the human experience. We all suffer at some point to varying degrees. The chip on the shoulder mentality is only going to further negative stereotypes and create more tension and segregation. Throughout human history, there have been tragedies and lots of evil at the expense of others. But the common denominator in successful people is that they rise up and overcome. My ancestors came to this country in the early 1900's with nothing. I'm descended from impoverished laborers. I have no ties to the antebellum south or slavery. None of my ancestors were even anywhere near the south during jim crow. But because I share the color of some evil people 150 yrs ago, I'm held accountable for this? This is why identity politics is so dangerous. We all get lumped in as monoliths even though there is so much diversity within each race with very different stories and socioeconomic levels. Part of the solution is to see each other as individuals and Americans first with race being secondary. The other part of the solution is not a secret: law and order, responsibility, education, keeping families together, and just being a good person in general. The media seems to push POC more and more to be the "chip on the shoulder" type as angry victims at the mercy of oppressors. But it's just a facade. It's a mind game and a dangerous one. It's so oversimplifying that it's shocking how it's now mainstream. If you have strong values and strong culture, you will succeed.